Howard Landa
Episode 145

Narrator: Welcome friends to another episode of The Story and Experience podcast. Join your host, Japhet De Oliveira with his guest today, and discover the moments that shape us, our families and communities.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey, welcome friends to another episode of the Story and Experience podcast. I'm delighted to be here in our studio in Roseville, California with a new guest sitting opposite me, and they are looking anxious, happy, excited. I'm trying to work their face out. Scared?

Howard Landa: No.

Japhet De Oliveira: That I know for sure knowing what they do. I know they're not scared. So if you're brand new to the podcast, we have a hundred questions. They progressively become more vulnerable and more open. The closer you get to 100 about stories and experiences that shape this person into the leader that they are today. And I'm going to ask the first 10, and then I'm going to hand over to you to choose the ones 11 to 100. So first one, could you tell us your name and does anybody ever mispronounce it?

Howard Landa: Sure. Howard Landa, and a lot of people mispronounce it. They call me Dr. Landa. So I just go with Howard. That's the only mispronunciation I really have.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. All right then how do you like people to call you then?

Howard Landa: Howard is just fine.

Japhet De Oliveira: Howard's fantastic. All right. Howard will do that. No Howie?

Howard Landa: Nope.

Japhet De Oliveira: Do you have any other nicknames or?

Howard Landa: None that we can say on the podcast? All right. All right, Howard.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey Howard, what do you do for work?

Howard Landa: I'm the Chief Medical Informatics Officer here at Adventist Health. Basically means that I am the physician who oversees health information technology. So those tools that our clinicians use at the point of care in providing the care for our patients.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right. Are there a lot of tools?

Howard Landa: Yeah, the EHR right now is Epic. Right now is Sterner rather, moving to Epic is the major one. But we have hundreds of different tools around electric cardiograms, radiology tools, all the physiologic monitoring. There's a lot of technology that's behind it, even though most people look at the electronic health record and say, "Well that is our technology."

Japhet De Oliveira: And so you are responsible to help us to select them or to train or-

Howard Landa: All of the above, above select training, optimizing, hopefully reducing the burden for our clinicians and providing better care for our patients.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right. What is the most interesting comment you've ever had from a fellow physician about a new application?

Howard Landa: Actually, it came from the Head of radio... Sorry, the Director of Pharmacy, when we were going live with Epic in one place that I won't name. And she came up to me and said, "Howard, what are we going to do about the pets?" And I went, "The what?" And she said, "The pets." I said, "Say more." She said, "Well, we have the doctor's pets in the pharmacy system, so they write prescriptions for their pets and we fill them." I'm like, "Are any of our doctors veterinarians?" She said, "I don't think so." I said, "Well then they can't write prescriptions for their pets, so we're going to stop that." And she said, "Well, they're going to be really upset about that." I said, "You give them my cell phone number and I'm happy to talk to them." I did not get a phone call.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. That's really funny. That was great. Okay, brilliant. Are you an early riser or late night owl?

Howard Landa: Early riser.

Japhet De Oliveira: And what's that?

Howard Landa: If I'm not up at 6:00 A.M. it's really unusual. As a surgeon, I got used to that very early on and seven o'clock, I feel like the Marines I've wasted half the day.

Japhet De Oliveira: Now you just reminded me when you said surgeon. People are probably curious as to the different types of medicine, so which kind of specialty are you in?

Howard Landa: Pediatric urology.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh really? Pediatric urology.

Howard Landa: Which is hyper specialized.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh yeah, that's hyper. Yeah.

Howard Landa: Yeah. I started off in training in pediatric urology, took one computer class in college and I dropped a box of punch cards and said, "This is not for me." But as I got more involved with practice, I started seeing where technology could provide benefit and more as a hobbyist, I started getting involved with it and I really liked it. And the more I got involved with, the more people pulled me into different areas and it became a whole career pivot.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's amazing. That's amazing. Hey, fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. Where were you born?

Howard Landa: Highland Park, New Jersey.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right. And did you grow up there?

Howard Landa: I grew up there. I left there when I went to college in Philadelphia when I was 18. Went back to Jersey for medical school and two years in New York, four years in San Diego, a year in Texas, and then came back to California.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. Bouncing around. That's great. Now, when you were a child growing up there, what did you imagine you would grow up to be?

Howard Landa: A veterinarian.

Japhet De Oliveira: Really?

Howard Landa: I was pre-vet when I-

Japhet De Oliveira: You love animals, I presume?

Howard Landa: Yep. I was pre-vet from a little kid. I worked in an animal veterinary hospital in my teen years. When I was in college, I had spent time at the large animal facility at the veterinary school. But you know what, you need like a 4.9 to get into veterinary school. And I didn't have that, so I wasn't smart enough to work on animals, so I had to work on people.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. Okay. All right. We'll have to circle on that some other time. It's an interesting world indeed. Hey, that's fantastic. Now, if people were to describe your personality, would they say you are an introvert or an extrovert and would you agree?

Howard Landa: Oh, I'm an extrovert.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh yeah.

Howard Landa: Yeah. It's a problem.

Japhet De Oliveira: It's a problem. It's a problem. Okay. All right. Hey, this morning when you woke up six-ish or before, what was the first thought that went through your mind this morning?

Howard Landa: That I got to get ready and drive to Roseville because it's about an hour and a half from home and try to get things organized at the house before I leave. And left my wife and my granddaughter at the house and came here.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, that's fantastic. Hey, do you enjoy the drive?

Howard Landa: You know what? I like driving and I find between listening to books and taking a phone call or two, I actually get a fair amount done. I do have to pay attention. That's a critical part.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's fair enough. No, that's good. Hey, this is just a personal thing. When you get up in the morning, do you have coffee, water, liquid green smoothie? What's your first drink of the day?

Howard Landa: Usually an energy drink.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh really?

Howard Landa: Yeah. It's probably not the best thing, but I go straight to a Monster. I'm not a coffee drinker. I will if I have to, but usually I'll take my caffeine cold.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, because you're an extrovert and you need more energy.

Howard Landa: Well, I think actually I'm more like ADD and I think I need to treat it and no one will give me medication, so it's a self-treat.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. All right. Hey, last question I have for you and then I'm going to hand over to you for numbers, is a leadership question. Are you a backseat driver?

Howard Landa: No. I really try actively not to micromanage. I can feel myself going there, but I really believe that if you... My job as a leader is to take barriers down and let people do the things they do well. I really try not to be a backseat driver and just let people run. If you pick the right people and you train them and support them, well they're going to do great things.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right. Hey, good to hear. All right, floor is open. Which number would you like to go to first?

Howard Landa: 37.

Japhet De Oliveira: 37. All right. Oh, what do you like most about your family?

Howard Landa: I love my wife. I love my granddaughter. As I said, she's been living with me since the middle of COVID and we just have a really balanced life. We're all busy and crazy, but we all come together and support each other and it works really, really well.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's fantastic. Did you have that growing up or you fostered this in your family?

Howard Landa: Yeah, I grew up with an incredible set of parents. My parents were together for 63 years when my dad passed and my mother did not really like it any night he wasn't there. And it's a really tough role model because you try to emulate that in today's world and it's really difficult.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yes, it is. That is.

Howard Landa: But yeah, it was a very positive experience. I felt very blessed. My mother is 93 and she kind of knows who I am most of the time. And my dad passed a couple years ago, but it was... I wouldn't say it was a magical childhood, but it was incredibly supportive and directive.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. So where next?

Howard Landa: Well, so far it hasn't been too bad. Let's probably 44.

Japhet De Oliveira: So far. That's good. 44. What is something that you're proud to have created?

Howard Landa: I think really my career and I started off very regimented. You go through medical college and medical school and residency and you go into practice and that pivot to technology was something that was completely unplanned. And looking back on it, I love the time I spent practicing, but the ability to provide so much benefit to so many clinicians, they may not notice it at all times, but we are providing. That to me, I'm very, very proud of.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's fantastic. That's pretty good. Good. All right. Where next?

Howard Landa: 53.

Japhet De Oliveira: 53. All right. Oh, can you tell us about at least one important person in your life?

Howard Landa: Oh, that's easy. Yeah, that would be my father.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh yeah.

Howard Landa: Yeah. We are very, very similar. All of my leadership skills, all of my management skills really came from him.

Japhet De Oliveira: Really?

Howard Landa: And I find it... That continuing, what would dad do? And the story I always tell is my father was... He started off, grew up on a chicken farm in Jersey and created his own business and was really an entrepreneur, self-made man. He had employees that were with him for 50, 60 years.

Japhet De Oliveira: Wow.

Howard Landa: He went into kidney failure when he was in his mid-late seventies and really too old for a transplant from the community and three of his employees volunteered to give him a transplant and one did.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh my. Oh my.

Howard Landa: That's the kind of loyalty and love he inspires in people and that's the way I like to lead.

Japhet De Oliveira: So how did he pass that on to you? Did he sit you down, talk things through?

Howard Landa: No. Entirely by example. I mean he worked hard. He was at work a lot. We would go visit him at work all the time and just watching him interact with people. He would have high school students and college students come to work for the summer and at the end of the summer they would say, "Well maybe I don't need to go back to school or go back to college right now. Maybe I'll work here for a while." So he said, "That's a great idea. You're fired. Because no one is going to not go to college to work in a warehouse." And that's just the way he treated people. And again, I think the love that he inspired in all of those, something that was palpable.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's a beautiful story. Thanks for sharing that. That's really beautiful. All right. Where next?

Howard Landa: 62 and we'll see how nervous I get.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. This is great for you, what does a sense of community mean to you?

Howard Landa: So for me, I work a lot and I need to actively balance that with my family life. But that sense of community is, a lot of it comes from work and the work that I do and the people I work with almost invariably become close friends. And as I've gone through several, I haven't gone through a lot of careers, but I've been through three or four different careers over time. And those people who I've worked with closely have remained my closest friends still. I still talk to people back from Loma Linda in the nineties, Kaiser in the two thousands, Alameda in the 2010s. Those people are still people I reach out to, I talk to, I see. And that long community, I don't believe you get a lot of friends in your life. I would much rather, and I think it's been my story to have a small number of really close people and be able to go back to them at any time. And you haven't talked to them in months and all of a sudden you see them and it's just like you talked to them yesterday.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey, those are magical friends. They are. Yeah. That's fantastic. Good. All right. Where next?

Howard Landa: 71.

Japhet De Oliveira: 71. You said it. All right. Describe a time in your that took an unpredictable turn.

Howard Landa: I got married in 1989.

Japhet De Oliveira: Nice.

Howard Landa: And didn't go very well. We had a couple of kids and it just really didn't work out. And I stuck with the marriage for a good decade, just because of the children. And as I said from watching my parents, it was like, you get married for life, there's no going back. You deal with everything. And that ability to finally say, "Hey, this isn't going to work and there's nothing I can do to make it better." When you've tried to do everything that's in your power and it has not resulted in that outcome, it was a very hard decision for me to say, "You know what? Enough is enough." But I got remarried and that was the best decision I made. So that has worked out incredibly well. But that pivot... I mean, I walked into it going like, "No, this is the rest of my life." So that was a tough one.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, that is. To wrap your head around that and to make this change as well. Yeah. Hey, well congratulations. I'm glad it's working out well.

Howard Landa: No, it's good.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. It's good. All right. All right, we're next. Thanks for sharing that as well.

Howard Landa: All right, we'll go with 81. I think I may be getting to the point this is probably enough.

Japhet De Oliveira: No. This is all good. It's all good. What is something that you've given your absolute best effort towards? Why was it important?

Howard Landa: I think that pivot in my career was something that I looked at and you train for seven years of residency to be a surgeon and you're doing that and then trying to make that change and you need to commit to that. And it's like you go through medical school, okay, now I'm done. Now I can just work. It was a complete reeducation, so that was a tough one. I enjoyed it. So it was easy, but a lot of work and I am constantly still learning. I always also go back to the medical side and say, "I need to keep up at least how medicine is practiced," because after you stop, I stopped in 2015, you start forgetting. So you need to keep reminding yourself of that and working with frontline physicians to understand what they're going through, but really putting that effort into it. It was a lot of work, but just so much reward.

Japhet De Oliveira: Wow. Hey, fantastic. How long did that take? That shift, taking the time?

Howard Landa: I'll let you know when it's done.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay.

Howard Landa: A couple of things. I started in it, again, complete serendipity and got pulled into it and I got incredibly lucky. My CIO when I was at Loma Linda in the nineties took me to a meeting of an organization called the Association Medical Directors of Information Systems and talk about a terrible name, AMDISK for short. And I went to the meeting and really liked it. And the CIO talked to the guy who was running the meeting and complained about the quality and the CEO of the organization said, "Well, it's just really two of us who are doing all the content. And so we do the best we can." To which he said, "Well, why don't you talk to Howard? He's on my payroll for a little bit of his time. I'm happy to have him work with you and kind of help you with it." So a couple hours later he came up to me and he said, "I was talking to your boss." And I said, "Yeah, I noticed. What were you guys talking about?"

"He'd like you to run this meeting next year."

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, okay.

Howard Landa: That is not what he said. And I have run that meeting every year since 1997.

Japhet De Oliveira: Really? You still do it today?

Howard Landa: I still do it today. It was two months ago. And it was such an incredible experience. It allowed me to reach out to the people... I was fresh in this field. It allowed me to reach out to the people who are the legends now and say, "Hey, would you like to come to a nice place and give a presentation?" And they're like, "Yeah, sure." Because no one was talking about this. There weren't very many places to go. It just really opened doors for me. And that learning has continued. I still have a board meeting every month with a group of Informaticists and that hour every month, I learn more than any meetings I go to for days on end. And that's really helped me in this field.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. Hey, thanks for sharing that. That's great. All right. Where next sir?

Howard Landa: 57.

Japhet De Oliveira: 57.

Howard Landa: Drop a little bit.

Japhet De Oliveira: No, that was great. I like 57. If you had to endorse a brand, what would it be and why? Howard says this brand.

Howard Landa: Yeah, I think I have to do this. So it would really be Epic.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah.

Howard Landa: I'm sure you're shocked.

Japhet De Oliveira: I'm surprised.

Howard Landa: Yeah. I've worked with a bunch of electronic health records over the years. Epic more than any other, especially in the last 15 or so, 15 or 20. And I've just been incredibly impressed by the culture of the company and what they've been able to deliver in an incredibly tough market. No one likes the technology that you give them because it is not as easy as your iPhone.

Medicine isn't as easy as making a phone call. Sure. It is an incredibly complex thing and we can't make it that simple. I would love to, and I think AI may offer some opportunities, but for now we still have the technology we do. And the idea of constantly making it better, constantly being aware of what's good for patients, what's good for physicians, what's good on the revenue cycle. All those pieces are always in play and I think they balance it and deliver it very well.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Now bonus question.

Howard Landa: Wait a minute. You didn't mention any of that at the start.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. We've worked on a couple of projects together and I noticed that you're quite an innovative person.

Howard Landa: Thank you.

Japhet De Oliveira: You're looking for new insights and you come with great ideas. And where did the innovation... Is that from your dad, from you? Is it like... Yeah.

Howard Landa: Yeah. I think a lot of it does come from my dad. I think I really like humor. I mean, I really enjoy not being super serious and I find that so many of the stupid ideas I come up with and my wife will tell you all the stupid ideas I come up with that don't go anywhere. But if you throw enough stupid ideas out, every once in a while they stick and it's like, yeah, we actually can do that.

I'll give you an example. I worked for Kaiser in Hawaii and we were trying to go live with Epic and we really didn't have a lot of money for support. And the physicians were really interested in having docs help them and bringing physicians out from the mainland to Hawaii, paying them all that. It just wasn't in the budget. And one day I said, "Why can't we just bring people out and put them on vacation?" And everybody started laughing. I said, "No, really." What if we were to say to people, "Hey, you give us four hours, six hours a day of time and we'll put you up in a hotel, give you a car, and fly to Hawaii." People took a week or two vacation, brought their families, worked like 12 hours every other day. And we had 20 physicians who came from various parts of Kaiser to Kaiser in Hawaii. And Kaiser in Hawaii represents like 3% of Kaiser permanently. But we had all these people come in and again, it was just a stupid comment I made about the weather, but it worked. We don't have money, we have weather.

Japhet De Oliveira: Good call. I love that. I love that. Good. All right, where next then?

Howard Landa: 75.

Japhet De Oliveira: 75. All right. Oh, do you remember the very first thing that you bought with your own money? And if so, what was it and why did you buy it?

Howard Landa: I really don't.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's okay.

Howard Landa: We'll get rid of that one.

Japhet De Oliveira: No, it is good.

Howard Landa: I mean, chances are very good. It would've been an album.

Japhet De Oliveira: An album. All right. Nice.

Howard Landa: Because I started working-

Japhet De Oliveira: What kind of music do you like?

Howard Landa: Classic rock, pretty much. And while my daughter, my granddaughter and my wife will be upset if I admit it, but I like country music also. But we'll stay with the classic rock. I started working in a blood lab. I was washing test when I was 14. We probably shouldn't have done that actually. Probably should have just thrown them away. But so at 14 I was really trying to get into music and I am tone-deaf and rhythm deaf, but I appreciate it. So buying albums because buying instruments or singing was going to empty the house.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. Do you sing the country music then?

Howard Landa: Only in private.

Japhet De Oliveira: In private. Okay. Well I'll have to record you.

Howard Landa: No, you do not.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right, we're next.

Howard Landa: 61.

Japhet De Oliveira: 61. Oh. Tell us about a time that you in your life that you really required incredible courage.

Howard Landa: I've just been so lucky. It's hard to come up with. In 2020, my granddaughter came to live with us and I realized at that point that it was going to be a... She was, at that time she was seven. And just thinking about what am I going to do with a seven-year-old? And the idea of raising her for the next 11, 15, 20 years at my age, that was courage on my part and courage on my wife's part to really say, "Look, this is what she needs. This is what we're going to do." And it certainly is a major pivot to what we had plans at that point.

Japhet De Oliveira: I would imagine.

Howard Landa: But four years later it's-

Japhet De Oliveira: Worth everything.

Howard Landa: But it's still... Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Japhet De Oliveira: Wow, that's beautiful. That actually is really beautiful. Everything, right?

Howard Landa: Family is everything.

Japhet De Oliveira: And what you want... Okay, so I've got to ask you, Howard. At end of days, what do you want people to remember you for?

Howard Landa: I want to be remembered for the person who made you smile, who made you successful, who made you feel good. I'm a people pleaser, but I also have enough self-awareness to say that you can't do that without boundaries. And being able to work with people,` enable people's success, especially if they're doing the right stuff and they're making the world a better place. That's what I think I'd like to be remembered for.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Hey, thank you for sharing that. That's inspiring for others as well. It's good. All right. We're next, sir?

Howard Landa: Let's just try 23.

Japhet De Oliveira: 23.

Howard Landa: We'll just go to the other side. Have some fun.

Japhet De Oliveira: Good. Yeah, absolutely. Tell us about the most... Oh, this is fantastic for you, the most outdated piece of technology that you still use on a regular basis.

Howard Landa: Oh boy. Probably printers.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh really?

Howard Landa: No, I still like the feel of paper. I still will print something and walk around with it and scribble on it and doodle on it. Yeah, that whole, everything's electronic, everything's on a pad or a tablet. Paper's good. I love a good book. I love to read a good book. I mean, I wish I had the time. I spend more time with books-

Japhet De Oliveira: Audio books.

Howard Landa: I'm dating myself. Books on tape. But audio books. But when you have a chance to sit down and actually open a book, it's an experience.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's really good. That's good. All right, that's great for you. All right, where next?

Howard Landa: 14. I just want to see what the other side looks like.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, I know. Tell us about what you enjoy doing outside of work.

Howard Landa: I love to hike. So even if it's something as simple as walking, I mean, I can walk out of my house and be kind of in the reservoir area in about 10 minutes. And just seeing the views in Northern California, getting in the fresh air, getting away, not seeing people for a while and no technology. Occasionally I may listen to something, but more time, more often than not, it's just experiencing the outdoors and just getting a little exercise at the same time of viewing all that. So that's what I enjoy.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. That's good. All right. When next? How's 14?

Howard Landa: Let's do 41.

Japhet De Oliveira: 41. All right. What are you excited about in life right now?

Howard Landa: I love this job.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. I can tell. From our meetings.

Howard Landa: Well, I've always loved what I do. Be it when I was practicing, I really enjoyed that. And when I pivoted to technology. If I didn't enjoy it, I'd be doing something different. And the people out there who complain about their job. I say, "Well, how long have you been there?" 20 years. Like, oh please, I can't even talk to you. What was the question again?

Japhet De Oliveira: What do you like doing right now?

Howard Landa: Thank you. But yeah, joining Adventist Health, the people here, the goodness that emanates, the joy, the way people treat one another, it really is a pleasure. And the idea of upgrading the technology and delivering it to our physicians, our nurses, all of our clinicians. I'm just really looking forward to getting that project started and getting that project live. Although we're looking two years from now.

Japhet De Oliveira: I know. I know. Now this is going to be a very large transformational cultural shift for everybody's practice. The clinicians in particular. So what be a secret that you would say to people who are maybe leading something similar or thinking of taking something similar in their life would be like, "Hey, if you're going to do something this big, do this."

Howard Landa: Yeah. I think it really is about managing change and it is really about helping people see a future that is different. People say they want something new, but then when you actually start having to go there, they're like, "But I'm so comfortable where I am."

Embracing change is something that people in my field pretty much take on across the board. They have to, but most people, especially most physicians and clinicians, they're very used to what they do. So being able to paint that picture of where they're going and the benefits and appealing to the heart. Intellectually, we all get it. But that emotional piece of you're going to be able to actually deliver better care. You're going to actually be able to get home sooner. You're going to actually be able to enjoy what you do more because we're going to make the technology that you use simpler, easier, more beneficial. I think it's getting them to believe that and you have to believe it yourself. And that part is easy for me because I've just seen it time and time again. But getting them over those humps, getting over the trough of disillusioning, the struggling, the change, the training, all those things are what get in the way. But that final vision, if you can get them to believe in it, you can get people to do amazing things.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. Well, Howard, you got time for two last questions. Where do you want to go for your last two questions?

Howard Landa: All right, let's go. 83, we'll see how vulnerable I can get.

Japhet De Oliveira: 83. All right. Talk about your favorite childhood memory. What was it?

Howard Landa: I think my favorite childhood memory was learning to ski.

Japhet De Oliveira: Really?

Howard Landa: Yeah. I was probably around seven or eight and we went up and just... This is in New Jersey, so not exactly the top of skiing. More ice than snow. But I remember the rope tow, I remember my mother and father both yelling and screaming about what I was or wasn't doing right. And when you got all the way down the slope without falling, that was just like, "Okay, now I want to do this again." So I think that was... That's probably my earliest one.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, that's really nice. That's right. Do you still ski?

Howard Landa: I haven't in a couple years. I still would love to getting out there and making the time, but we're talking about doing it again this year.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right, that's great. That's great. Have you taught your granddaughter?

Howard Landa: We have not gotten her in the snow yet.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, okay. This is going to be... It's going to be epic. That joke must happen all the time. I know. I know. I know. All right then where next for last one?

Howard Landa: 91.

Japhet De Oliveira: 91. All right. This, describe a timing in life when you learned about forgiveness.

Howard Landa: I think the biggest time was learning to forgive myself. And I would go back to talking about getting divorced and walking into a relationship saying this is forever. And being able to say, "You need to forgive yourself that you didn't do it. You couldn't. It wasn't whether it was your fault or not, it didn't work and you need to get over that and move on to the next thing because it will just eat you up and continue to take over." So I think that was probably the biggest one.

Japhet De Oliveira: How did you learn to forgive yourself?

Howard Landa: It was a lot of just introspection and a lot of just sitting there quietly and thinking. I remember when I was going through it, I told some of my partners, if you walk into my office and I'm just staring off into space, give me the time. If you need me, just make sure I'm listening to you and you may get an answer that makes no sense at all. But it really just took the time to allow myself to go through that. And what I've always found is that if you've given everything you can to something and there's nothing more that you can figure out to do and it still doesn't work, there's a feeling of giving away at that point and that feeling of forgiveness and understanding that you couldn't fix it. And I think it's an important lesson to learn. We need to relearn that frequently through life.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. Howard, thank you so much for your honesty and for your inspiration and wonderful stories about your dad and life. Really appreciate it.

Howard Landa: It is a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

Japhet De Oliveira: No, it's great. I want to encourage people, I say this for every episode, but I do believe this more time we spend with people asking them good questions, listening to their stories, we are transformed and changed as well for the better.

Howard Landa: I love storytelling and the important thing I want to underlined is the word listening.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Well, God bless everybody and we'll connect soon. Thanks again.

Howard Landa: Thank you.

Narrator: Thank you for joining us for the Story and Experience podcast. We invite you to read, watch, and submit your story and experience at eventushealth.org/story. The story and Experience podcast was brought to you by Eventus Health through the office of culture.