James Burke
Episode 161

Narrator: Welcome friends to another episode of the Story and Experience podcast. Join your host, Japhet De Oliveira with his guest today and discover the moments that shape us, our families and communities.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey, welcome friends to another episode of the Story and Experience Podcast. I am delighted, absolutely delighted with this guest today. We're sitting opposite each other in Roseville, California here at the head office. And if you're brand new to the podcast, we have 100 questions. They progressively become more vulnerable the closer you get to 100, and they're about stories and experiences that shape this person into the leader that they are today.

So I'm going to begin, first 10, and then I hand over to you and you pick between 11 and 100, where we want to go. Could you tell us your name? Does anybody ever mispronounce it, sir?

James Burke: My name, Burke. James Burke. Nobody usually mispronounces it.

Japhet De Oliveira: Captain Burke? No?

James Burke: Lieutenant Commander.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, Lieutenant Commander. Okay. All right.

James Burke: I was a Lieutenant Commander in the Navy as a ER physician at one point in time.

Japhet De Oliveira: See, I was making a Star Trek reference, and you went all military on us. All right, that's great.

James Burke: I don't want to be accused of having a higher rank than I actually did.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. Hey, James, tell us what do you do for work?

James Burke: So I'm an ER physician clinically, and then I am the system chief medical officer for Adventist Health.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. So you're still practicing?

James Burke: So I still practice emergency medicine about four to five times a month, mostly at night and on weekends. And my day job is the system chief medical officer.

Japhet De Oliveira: Is that the hardest shift, the nighttime and weekends?

James Burke: I would say it is. It's when the superstars, it's when the heroes, it's when the folks that don't have all of the backup are in the emergency room.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, wow. You love it?

James Burke: I think I do love it. I think I was conditioned to work that shift. I've worked that shift for many years, the afternoon to late. It allowed me to be with my family during the day when the children were young, and then I would kind of transition off when folks would watch TV and I would be at work and then I could be back at home when the children woke up again.

Japhet De Oliveira: Now, you've mentored lots of physicians into their roles, and you've seen people kind of go through this journey. So explain to somebody who's thinking about medicine, what draws them? What draws them into being ER first? And then you can unpack the other part.

James Burke: I'm not sure how a lot of people move into it. I think the times are changing right now because people like shift work. And so initially there's some people drawn to emergency medicine because of the shift work. Personally, I didn't like long procedures. I always liked surgical type of clinical work, but I never really liked being in surgery for eight hours, you know, taking down adhesions. And so emergency medicine gave us a plethora of options and then it still allowed you to be part of that surgical mentality of let's get things done, let's move things along, but also gave you that intellectual clinical feedback as well, I guess.

One of the things I think is interesting is that where I trained, the surgeons would've said that they would use medicine or internal medicine much more than even the internist because you have to optimize patients not only prior to surgery but actually after surgery as well. So I thought emergency medicine kind of talked to me.

So for those of you who are out there that are looking at it, I think you need to look at medicine as a continuum because you may be interested in shift work in emergency medicine in your early years, and then as you start to mature as a clinician, or even I like to say mature in age, you'll start to look at other options because it's difficult to do shift work through the night when you're 55, 60 years old. So it's unfortunate that we can't transition.

I think the future of emergency medicine will actually start to say hey, listen, we have a huge body of clinicians. Can they potentially move into other fields? Maybe it is family practice or other types of healthcare as they start to get more mature in life, or sunset, or any other euphemistic word you want to say for getting old.

Japhet De Oliveira: For getting old. Yeah, that's good. So you do this, and you're also chief medical officer as well for the system. What does that part of the job really entail?

James Burke: It's lot of duties as assigned. I think I'm pretty fortunate because I work with a team of individuals and we're bringing together a lot of other individuals and groups to kind of create this clinical experience for our communities.

I would even go one step further than that, but one of the things that I find extremely satisfying, at least in the last few years that we've worked is this whole concept of this care redesign. Now what does that mean? What we did is we took all of the high volume disease states that have a high amount of variability and we started to discuss among ourselves what's the best practice taking literature and things like that into consideration. And we came up with about 30 or so pathways that were benchmarked that we could actually test and that we actually had good results with. Sepsis is one that really kind of bubbles up in my mind, something that I do on a regular basis in the emergency room, but we were able to actually change care delivery and change the trajectory of healthcare in our system. And I think to me that's been one of the major excitement that the job brought and reward. That's what I was going to-

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. I digress a little bit because it's just kind of fun, but we've been on some kind of instant commands with some crises that have taken place in the world recently here in North America and I was surprised, pleasantly surprised by the knowledge of skills that you and your colleagues have when you come to these discussions because you're reading peer reviewed literature, you're keeping on top of... How do you balance keeping on top of all of that and practical medicine and being on the edge?

James Burke: So personally I do approach it in a couple of ways, and I do worry about as we start to get more and more in depth in our what I call administrative work, we lose a little of that day-to-day kind of razor's edge approach to medicine, which you really need to have. And the way I do that personally is every Thursday night for an hour I'll do a grand rounds on an online kind of similar podcast or a CME. So I try to do that every Thursday night. Thursday nights sometimes usually I would have clinical time, and so I would use my same time that I've allotted, if I'm not going to the hospital, then I'll do the grand rounds.

And I just reboarded this year, so I'm keeping up with my board certification, and that was a great opportunity to just say oh, you're right, I need to think about that.

And personally I look back and I actually kind of find it rewarding because you forget about all that stuff. You forget about some of the items that you may not see on a regular basis. Depending on the community hospital you work at, there may be more common ailments than another community hospital. And so it's nice to be reminded of different clinical pathways. And it's nice to go back and kind of... As much as it may sound onerous to go back and re-credential, I think that the American Board of Emergency Medicine has done a good job in bringing a new format to board certification.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right, so now practical, you're going into late night shifts, you're all day working as well. Are you an early morning person? Late night owl?

James Burke: I appreciate that question. I am a late night owl. So three things I think contributed to that. My first job was a busboy. A busboy usually has to clean the restaurant up. So in high school I would not get home from this job until around 11:00, 11:30 at night. That's the first one.

Second, I then went to residency. And residency, most of the work is this kind of 12 hours on, 12 hours off, and I always gravitated along the lines of nighttime. Plus I went to residency in New York City, which for those of you who are listening to this podcast, it doesn't really sleep.

Japhet De Oliveira: Fair enough, fair enough.

James Burke: And then the third would be it just fit into my lifestyle. When my children were young, I would kind of move them off towards the sleep and then I would go to work and then I would be there when they woke up and then I'd fall asleep for a couple hours. But it was this kind of cycle for a number of years.

Japhet De Oliveira: You've kept it going. All right, this morning when you woke up at the reasonable hour, what's the first thought that went through your mind?

James Burke: Besides that I have a podcast discussion with Japhet-

Japhet De Oliveira: Fair enough.

James Burke: ... the first was I'm going to need to get my flat white coffee at Bloom instead of waking the family up with the coffee maker first thing. So that was my first or maybe second thought. And that's usually-

Japhet De Oliveira: We both love coffee. And yes, I was going to ask you next, what do you drink first drink of the day? But apparently it is coffee. Is that it?

James Burke: That's correct. My first drink of the morning is a flat white with Klatch coffee beans.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, it's good. It's good. Tell me about this. Where were you born?

James Burke: I was born in southern California in a hospital in San Gabriel.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. And did you grow up in that area?

James Burke: I grew up in that area. I grew up in a small town called Arcadia, California, not far from there. And my grandparents were close and we were able to drive over there, so I grew up with actually...

So my grandfather passed away when my mom was very young. And so my grandmother remarried another individual, a gentleman who essentially was my grandfather who had another seven. So she had eight baby boomers and he had seven. And so I grew up in a true Brady bunch family.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. That's great.

James Burke: And so my family's pretty extensive, and I'm probably the youngest of the kids theoretically... Or the span of aunts and uncles is pretty long. And so when I was younger, my mom kind of just would say, go ahead and play with your aunts and uncles. And so I kind of grew up with them and it's been pretty special. One of my uncles was a mentor when I was younger and kind of guided me towards healthcare. I don't know if it was really healthcare, it was mostly research.

And I remember at the time I flew, this is a true story, I flew to Cornell. He was getting his PhD in physiology at the vet school at Cornell. So I flew there because I was a kid, I didn't really know what college was. And I remember sitting in a lab and he told me, "Don't move because I'm using some radioactive nucleotides to be able to track stuff and there's some radiation around here. But don't move. I want to finish this experiment and then we're going to go home and get some dinner." And I just remember that experience and it was just so cool, and I kind of was drawn to that interest.

And that's essentially how I'm sitting here today. Initially I thought I was going to be a researcher, and there was a conversation that occurred with him that said, "You know, you're going to have to decide, you can't really Denovo research unless you understand systems. And I think you need to learn, either go to vet school or you need to either go to medical school and then you can do research, and then you'll have systems to be able to test into." And so that's how I ended up in healthcare in the end.

Japhet De Oliveira: So it started pretty early for you then?

James Burke: Yeah, I would say junior in high school I started thinking biology was interesting. It was weird. For whatever reason, it's easy... And it's interesting because I see this with my children. Some of them don't have the ability to do this and they're more like my wife, which is another story. But I can see the chemicals and nucleotides in space, and for me I can put them together much better than maybe numbers or things like that. And that's kind of how we did organic chemistry. And then we went into biochemistry.

And so eventually I landed on a major in microbiology at the esteemed university of University of Davis and I enjoyed it. And I to this day tell the boys I wish I could go back and do some microbiology as I get older.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's beautiful. Hey, that's beautiful to have that passion still. That's fantastic. If people were to describe you, James, as an introvert or an extrovert, which would they pick and would you agree with them?

James Burke: I think my family would say I'm an introvert. I would say that when you are working day to day, people may think you're an extrovert because you're interacting, you're talking, you're running groups of nurses and teams and working with them as well. But deep down, I would argue that I'm probably more of an introvert and I'm very shy, and that's how I think most of my close family members would see me. And it's just sometimes big events sometimes are awkward, but you get into it.

Japhet De Oliveira: You do a great job with it. So leadership question. Are you a backseat driver?

James Burke: I'd like to say I'm not a backseat driver. My son just got his driver's license, and he would probably say I am a backseat driver. But those I think are two different things. Teaching somebody to drive and why you would accelerate into a red light, I think most of us would have a comment about that.

From a leadership perspective, I really look at it like a sports team, and I really try to bring that mentality that each one of us is a professional and they come and bring that expertise to the table. And part of my job is to facilitate all of those specialists to come together and solve a problem, create a program, ultimately provide the best care for our patients.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. That's great. All right, where do you want to go first then? What number?

James Burke: 17.

Japhet De Oliveira: 17. All right. Share what day is the most special in the calendar and why? Any day in the entire year.

James Burke: It's interesting.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay.

James Burke: Most would say, well, could be your birthday. I would say, I don't have any one day, and I would argue that the month of May is a very special time. One, I was married in the month of May and you have Mother's Day in the month of May, and three, my oldest son was born in the month of May. And so May is a very impactful month and there's a lot of things going on, so I can't pick any one day, but I look at the month of May and it's just-

Japhet De Oliveira: Filled with joy.

James Burke: ... a blessing. It truly is. It turns out my oldest son was born on Mother's Day weekend, and it was a special event. And so May always seems to be this kind of warm place in my heart.

Japhet De Oliveira: How many kids do you have?

James Burke: So I have three children and a dog. And the oldest is 16, and then I have twins, which wasn't disclosed that my wife had twins in her family. It wasn't disclosed when we got married.

Japhet De Oliveira: Should it have been?

James Burke: I question. But it turns out that there is somebody in her family somewhere in Louisiana that had twins and it was disclosed after the fact. But we couldn't have been more fortunate to have these three boys, and they are just... There's always entertainment, there's always laughter, and there's a lot of fun stories associated-

Japhet De Oliveira: Who's the most mischievous in the family?

James Burke: I don't know if it's truly somebody getting in trouble as opposed to-

Japhet De Oliveira: Just having fun.

James Burke: My oldest is very precocious, and he just is funny. I told a story about this individual. This guy, he flew from Moscow to Cuba and then somehow from Cuba he got into Florida, and then from Florida he got a license, and then he made his way up to Washington. And he just paused and looked at me, he says, "There's a direct flight from Moscow to Cuba. I wouldn't have thought." So it's that type of laughter that we have.

Another funny story is he goes, "Dad, we need to move out of our neighborhood. It's a lot of crime." I said, "A lot of crime? Really?" He's like, "Well dad, I walked home, and there was crime on every corner." I said, "Really?" He said... I'm like, well, this is just New York or what have you. He's like, "Yeah, dad, there's like six banks in this town. I got to think that the white collar crime is outrageous."

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, of course. Of course.

James Burke: So yeah, we're fortunate with those boys.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey, that's great. That's great. All right, where next after 17?

James Burke: 26.

Japhet De Oliveira: 26. All right then. Tell us about one thing that you love that most people do not.

James Burke: One of the things I really enjoy is just doing chores around the house.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh yeah?

James Burke: And I find myself just, there's something peaceful about cleaning up, not necessarily the yard work per se, but a little bit, some of the just cleaning up, organizing some stuff, making sure things in the garage are put away. One thing that I would assume that people don't know about me is that I enjoy also going to Home Depot. You know, some people may like to go to Costco, but I enjoy going to Home Depot so much so that I do have the app on my phone, and I somewhat prize myself in the ability to allow the app to tell me what aisle and what bin number. Yeah. So I'm that guy. If you see me at Home Depot, I can help you.

Japhet De Oliveira: You can help. Okay, great.

James Burke: And I think it's funny because I have the technical skills of actually fixing something of probably zero. Hence the reason my dad kind of shoved me into healthcare or something other than... My father was an electrician, and he was like, "You might want to think of doing something else." And so comedy didn't work out, so here I am. But I enjoy it and I enjoy the process of going there, and I think I'm going to go and do a project and I get a couple of things and I feel as though I'm going to go ahead and do as doers do.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. So when was the last time you were at Home Depot?

James Burke: It's funny you say that.

Japhet De Oliveira: Last week or...

James Burke: I was actually.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh really?

James Burke: I'm looking at putting some fans in a couple areas of the house. And then we had just painted our home here in San Marino and we were going to put some new lights up, and that actually I can do. I will have some tutelage for my dad, but I will be able to do that myself.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great.

James Burke: Except for the fans. Fans, I need some help. Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. All right. All right. Where next?

James Burke: 47.

Japhet De Oliveira: 47. All right. You've just met someone. What would you want them to know about you and why?

James Burke: I don't know if I would lead with this, but I think we see each other to what we do for a living, but that's not really who I am. I think if you were to say, "Well what do you do?" And of course the government makes you fill out on a tax return what your actual job is, and physician or what have you. But I see myself as more as an adventurer or traveler. Deep down that's kind of who I am at most. And maybe that's why I was drawn to shift work because I was the itinerant and I was going to go...

Right after 9/11, I had some military responsibilities. After that was done, my good friend and I from New York took a walkabout, and we basically circumnavigated the world. went through Asia, Australia, New Zealand. Eventually I met my wife on this walkabout ultimately, but it's nothing about going to the airport and going off to an adventure. So I would say an explorer, adventurer. And I love reading some of the books about the early explorers, what it would be like, even what it would be like going to some of the places we take for granted, but 50 years ago.

Japhet De Oliveira: So tell us actually the story how, if you were telling your boys how you met their mother, how did you?

James Burke: So my colleague and I were traveling around the world, and we were in New Zealand and it was raining. And we're like, "Listen, it's raining. You can't go hang out on the beach." And so we were looking through the Lonely Planet. For those of you remember, there was the Lonely Planet, because you couldn't just go online. So in the Lonely Planet under Fiji, there was this, "Oh hey, go to this island," you know, what have you. We said, "You know what? Why don't we just go ahead and go there?" And so we went down and I think there was like, FlightAware was this place in... We bought two tickets to Fiji.

Next thing you know we're on a plane to Fiji. It's sunny, and we had landed and we were at different times too because we couldn't get flights at the same time. So I was a little ahead of him and he was a little bit behind. But yeah, I met my wife with her friends, and she was coming around and she was doing a walkabout as well after school. And she was on her way back home and we were kind of crossing, and we just started a conversation and one conversation... Oh, I know what it was. She sailed. She was on the sailing team.

Japhet De Oliveira: Really?

James Burke: And I said, oh really? And I said, "Oh, I was in the Navy. I would love to go sailing." And so we ended up going sailing, and she was really good at it too. And it was a little choppy, I remember. And so we were out there, we were sailing for a while and we just kept a connection, kept talking to each other. And next thing you know, we have a mortgage, a dog, and three children.

Japhet De Oliveira: Three amazing boys. Yeah. That's fantastic. Hey, it's beautiful. All right. Where next?

James Burke: 64.

Japhet De Oliveira: 64. All right. When you look back at your life, tell us about a moment where you were saying, "What was I thinking?"

James Burke: Yeah, I can't say that happens a lot.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay, good.

James Burke: But one of the things I try to tell young people, and I do tell the boys, is that you have to take what's presented to you in multiple parts of your education, and you have to just take all the things that's offered and just suck it dry because you don't realize in the moment all of the opportunities.

One of the things that I talk about locally, they have the ability to go to the Huntington library to be able to do courses and stuff. I'm like, that's incredible. I look back at my life and there were times when I was at NYU where I could have done things through the business school and some of the other stuff that would've just kind of rounded me out as an individual that I wish I had taken advantage of. But you're so focused.

And even back at Davis. So even back at Davis, I wish I had taken more items that kind of just... You know, Shakespeare, that would've rounded me out more as an individual. Because you find that in healthcare, you're so focused to become a doctor and you're so focused on the science, but in the end, you know how much science we use on a daily basis? We use a lot, but what we talk about is like, "Oh no, no, I read this book. No, no, that... Socrates never said that." And so it's a little bit of the loss of that philosopher or that kind of well-rounded intellect that I look back on and I wish I had, when I had the opportunities, I took more of those.

And so I look back from when I was in college to when I was in medical school and then more importantly when I was in residency, when I should have been able to, but you're so focused on, "I got to get through this next shift and then go and do this, and I need to go do other stuff," that you don't realize all the opportunities you have to you. And I think that would be the one item that I would hope folks would be able to learn.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. Actually, it is really wise just to have a broader, wider knowledge base. That's good. Good. All right. Where next?

James Burke: 74.

Japhet De Oliveira: 74. Oh. What gives you hope? Yeah.

James Burke: Not to glaze the team that I work with, but I would say that right now... So I've been with Adventist Health, I started in 2002 when I first came back from my walkabout as a clinician. And I saw what was going on there, and I would say that the journey that we started in 2016 to where we're at now, I just see tremendous amounts of hope.

And for those of you who are listening and are part of the organization now, I think I've never had more hope to a brighter future than what we're trying to create, not only for the communities that we work with, but also for our entire states that we are part of. And I think to me, it's the team that I work with. It's the group of folks that want to come together, that aren't coming together for some of the political jockeying that may have occurred back in 2016 and '17. It's truly hey, we're here to go ahead and create something that may not have always been there. And I think that's the type of thing that gives me hope and excitement.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great. That's great. I love that you see that and that you're living it as well. That's good. All right, where next?

James Burke: 82.

Japhet De Oliveira: 82. If you could only keep three possessions, what would they be and why? Three things.

James Burke: It's funny, the item that came to my mind initially is the picture that sits behind me at work, my Tatof painting. But then I said no, maybe not that one. At home, when we lived in Australia, we purchased this painting from a man who was an artist in Sydney, and it's a painting of mailboxes that you would find in the outback.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, nice.

James Burke: And it just talked to us about the kind of what Australia was, and what they did is that each one of those mailboxes, they created a postage stamp of each one of them.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh really?

James Burke: Yeah. So that would be something, an inanimate object that I...

Japhet De Oliveira: That's lovely.

James Burke: I would always want to keep my Labrador, great hunting dog that she is. But that's-

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. That's good

James Burke: ... ephemeral because it's not an inanimate object.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's okay.

James Burke: I would keep my wedding ring. And yeah, I don't... The third item, so many different... I guess it's hard... People would say, I mean I don't want to say toothbrush, but that's a whole different item.

I think that I've been fortunate because as what I would say a traveler you don't get to keep a lot of stuff, and it's the memories, and it's the memories. And nowadays I can say well, I want to make sure I keep all of my photos in the cloud. That would be the one thing. I need to have access to my cloud. That's the one thing because it gives you those memories, but unfortunately they too could be ephemeral. And I think one thing that I want to keep are all the memories that I have and that you can visualize from past adventures.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's beautiful.

James Burke: So, painting.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yep, painting. Wedding ring.

James Burke: Wedding ring

Japhet De Oliveira: And memories.

James Burke: Memories.

Japhet De Oliveira: All right, love it.

James Burke: And the dog's in there too.

Japhet De Oliveira: And the dog's... But it's a bonus.

James Burke: But it's ephemeral.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh yeah. All right, time for the final two numbers. Where do you want to go?

James Burke: 92.

Japhet De Oliveira: 92. All right. James, how would you like to be remembered?

James Burke: I want people to remember me as an individual who accomplished the work that was given to him, at least from this position. I do want the boys to remember me more as somebody who was just this bigger than life individual. I mean with the stories that I tell them about the tigers that we came on when we were traveling, there was a tiger. And I mean there's all of these stories before I even went to... Actually when I came home, I used to race cars and I had done that when I was younger. And so there's all of these kind of stories. So as more of a bigger than life individual.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, that's great. I love that. All right, last one then James. What number?

James Burke: 86.

Japhet De Oliveira: 86. All right, here it is. Who was influential in shaping you to be who you are and why?

James Burke: I think I already alluded to it. It was my uncle in my earlier years, but I think each one of my relatives kind of put me on a different track. And I think that's beneficial because even today, not that people shape, but basically we're creating a team in each one of them. But I would say my uncle was the one who really kind of was the formative years to put me on a pathway of education, things of that nature.

I would say that my stepdad gave me the flavor of travel, and he used to tell stories about how he had a bike after he finished college and he would ride this bike all over Europe. And at one point, remember there was an East and West Germany.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yes. That's right.

James Burke: So he had ended up driving through East Germany and all the stories about that. I went to Morocco back in the early '70s. So I think those individuals who've somewhat inspired me to be the individual I am today.

But I think we all have mentors along the way, and some are stronger, and then some come into our lives and then as we pivot, they potentially come out of our lives. But I would say that my uncle definitely probably was the first individual with the formative years kind of put me along the right pathway. And then to that taste of adventure, that taste of travel was probably my stepdad. When we used to drive to these auto races, it'd be sometimes in the next state, so he would tell stories along the way. And so that's how I remember my youth.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's beautiful. Do these people all know the tremendous influence they had in your life? Have you had a chance to tell them?

James Burke: I think they know. I would say so. One was right after 9/11 happened, nobody could get ahold of me. There was the communications had broken down and all of that. And so we all met in December to go skiing, and it was the first time that I had seen anybody after the event. And it was just big hugs and you just knew at that time that there was a bond.

And then I would say my dad, my stepdad, he knows in the sense that we're already telling them, "The boys need to have some time with you so they know how to go and survive in life as well."

Japhet De Oliveira: That's honoring. That's great.

James Burke: So I think those types of experiences are what we're passing down to the next generation.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's beautiful. James, it's been a privilege to be able to talk. Absolutely fun. And it is wonderful. I say this every time because I believe it, but when you talk to someone and you hear their stories, we're both changed by it, right? You remember, and it reminds you, and I'm transformed by it as well. So thank you for the time. Thank you for sharing. I think for me listening to you talk about the fact that mentors come in maybe for a time, for a moment, and your sense of adventure, it's fantastic. So it's good, it's good.

James Burke: Well Japhet, thank you for inviting me, and I appreciate you all that you do.

Japhet De Oliveira: No worries. God bless you. And God bless everybody else, and we'll connect again soon.

James Burke: Cheers.

Narrator: Thank you for joining us for the Story and Experience podcast. We invite you to read, watch, and submit your story and experience at adventisthealth.org/story. The Story and Experience podcast was brought to you by Adventist Health through the office of culture.