Teresa Ku-Borden
Episode 169

Narrator: Welcome friends to another episode of the Story & Experience podcast. Join your host, Japhet De Oliveira with his guest today and discover the moments that shape us, our families and communities.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey, welcome friends to another episode of the Story & Experience podcast, and I am delighted to be able to connect with our guest who we are connected remotely, which has its downsides, but it's a privilege to be able to have them on this podcast. It was hard to schedule because they're difficult to get hold of. They are so busy, and you'll see why in a minute. If you're brand new to the podcast, you'll hear that there are a hundred questions and they are about stories and experiences that shaped this person into the leader that they are today.

So I'm going to ask the first 10 and then I'm going to hand over to them and they'll be able to pick from 11 to a hundred. And let me start with the first one. Could you tell us your name and does anybody ever mispronounce it?

Teresa Ku-Borden: My name is Teresa Ku-Borden, and sometimes people get a little bit tripped up by the hyphen in my last name, Ku and Borden, so people kind of don't know what to do with it at times, but they end up pronouncing it correctly. I will say that people don't mispronounce my first name, but they do misspell it a lot. So I get a lot of TH, but my name has no H in it.

Japhet De Oliveira: Good for you, Teresa. Does anybody ever say Ku hyphen Borden? No.

Teresa Ku-Borden: No, they don't say hyphen. They sometimes just say Ku or Borden. They kind of like to choose what they want with my last name, which I don't really mind.

Japhet De Oliveira: You don't correct them, you just let it roll?

Teresa Ku-Borden: No, as long as they say Ku. Ku is my maiden name and it's really important to me to have that as part of my last name.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great.

Teresa Ku-Borden: So as long as I say that, I'm fine.

Japhet De Oliveira: What if you had had a good ask? What if you had a really long maiden name? Would you have kept it as well?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I'm not sure. That's a great question. I'm just really grateful that my maiden name was very sure and that my kids also share the same last name and they're going to be okay. But then I also worry if they ever get married what's going to happen.

Japhet De Oliveira: A Triple Hyphen. Teresa, that's fantastic. Now what do you do for work, Teresa?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I'm a family medicine physician in Boyle Heights, and then I'm also the program director for the Family Medicine residency program here at Venice Health White Memorial.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. Have you been doing that long, both of them?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I've been a family physician since 2010s when I graduated from medical school, and so it's been over a decade and then I recently became the program director of this family medicine residency a little over a year ago.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Okay. You've got to tell us the inside scoop. What is it like leading these residents? I mean, we've all seen Grey's Anatomy, but tell us the truth.

Teresa Ku-Borden: I will tell you the truth. I mean, it is really a privilege for me to be able to lead and develop these future positions. I really count it as a blessing because they are really eager to learn.

This is a time in their training where they've gotten all this knowledge in medical school. It's attaining knowledge, it's a little bit of patient care when you're in medical school, a little bit of clinical experiences, but residency is when they're most like a sponge, is where they're going to learn as much as they can for their future practice. So that's why it's such an honor for me to be a part of this season of their career. I feel like it's really, really important to set the foundation for how they're going to practice in their future work and career.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. All right, so give us an example of one of them that just stands out for you. You don't have to share names, just like a moment, a story, a moment that took place for you where it was like, "Wow, this is why it's such a privilege to do this."

Teresa Ku-Borden: Yeah, So being a program director, I not only develop the residents and lead the residents, but I also have a team of faculty who are also family physicians. We're on the same team or we're all working together to train our family medicine residents. So I also get the privilege to lead a team of faculty. And I think what is most rewarding is for me as a program director is to see people change the light bulb go on, if you will.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, that's great. Yeah.

Teresa Ku-Borden: I really love working with residents one-on-one. So whether it's on the inpatient side, rounding with them in the morning with our busy family medicine service. We work in Boyle Heights, which is an underserved community. And so we see patients that have a lot of different complex medical problems, but also face a lot of barriers to access to healthcare. Seeing the residents navigate their confidence and applying their medical knowledge that they learn to really care holistically for these patients is already very rewarding.

I also practice obstetrics. Obstetrics is within the family medicine scope and I would say some of my favorite moments is getting to follow a patient with a resident through the patient's pregnancy in the outpatient clinic, getting to see their progression with their pregnancy, how they are navigating all the changes in their body, and also seeing the residents interact with them before they have their baby. And then when they're in labor, we will go and deliver their baby together. And it's one of my joys as a family doctor, but then getting to see the resident also experience that is really amazing. It's like they also kind of experience that relationship they have with their patient getting to be a part of very significant moment in their life. And then what's really awesome is that we get to see that mom and baby in the clinic later and watch that baby grow up.

Japhet De Oliveira: What a journey. Wow.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Yeah. And so I think that getting to be a part of that, getting to share that experience with a resident has been really, really great for me.

Japhet De Oliveira: So let me ask you a practical question and I'm going to circle back on that because I'm kind of still curious as to why you ended up choosing family medicine, but I think I kind of get it, but we'll come back to it. So are you an early riser late night owl?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Oh, good question. I think there's seasons of my life when I'm both, but I prefer... Actually, well, I did residency and residency is hard and there are times when you have to stay up all night to care for patients. But I prefer to be an early riser actually, because I feel like I have, in my mind, I have more of the day to get things done. Actually, one of my favorite moments right now in my life is getting up before my kids get up, when it's still kind of dark. I can make my coffee and sit in silence or journal or maybe work on a few things for work. And I just feel like that little moment that I can have to myself is really great. So right now I prefer to be an early riser. I should go to bed early, but…

Japhet De Oliveira: All right. Teresa, where were you born?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I was born in Santa Clara, California.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. And did you grow up there?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I did around that area.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. So when you were a child growing up there, what did you imagine you wouldn't grow up to be?

Teresa Ku-Borden:

I remember in first grade I wanted to be an artist.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, really? Okay. Do you still dabble in art?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I really loved being creative. It's something that I set aside for a while as I went through school. In high school I was more drawn to the sciences and had really great teachers in the sciences. That's probably why I kind of went into biology and was pre-med and college. But in college I kind of realized and I had some great mentors that I couldn't be just all about science or focused on getting into medical school, that there really needed to be, I really need to explore other parts of myself. And I kind of tapped into the creativity that I think I had when I was a child and really learned to kind of embrace it. I always thought they were kind of mutually exclusive, but actually-

Japhet De Oliveira: You brought them together.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Yeah, they're not, and honestly, being creative I think gives me a little bit of an outlet, a little bit more energy to do what I do. And also there's a lot of intersection. I have to be creative with my patients sometimes because the things that I prescribe or the things that I recommend may not be right for them. And so we have to work together to think of creative ways to make them better. But I do still do some visual arts. So I like multimedia art. I did a lot of collages in the past. I really like making cards for people. Right now, it's really funny. I actually really enjoy making Canvas. I don't know if you've heard of Canva, but Canva is this-

Japhet De Oliveira: Yes, I have. Yes. Lots. Yes.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Yes. Like graphic design kind of platform.

Japhet De Oliveira: So you've got an account and you're inside Canva all the time?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Kind of, yeah. I actually feel really drawn to visually aesthetically pleasing things. And I'm like, if I'm going to make an announcement, if I'm going to make a flyer of some sort or a thank you card, I go to Canva and make it and it's so fast and I think people appreciate it. So it helps me kind of just be creative at work sometimes to get some things done for work, but I hope people appreciate it.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's really good. That's really good. I love that. I love how you mentioned that you have some coffee in the morning. Is that your first drink of the day? Coffee early and you have black or do you have it?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Yes. Coffee is my first drink of the day and I like a little bit of milk, so whole milk, a little bit of sugar, and it just really depends. Sometimes I put less sugar in it.

Japhet De Oliveira: No, that's good stuff. That is good stuff. Now, if people were to describe you, your personality, would they say you are an introvert or an extrovert and would you agree?

Teresa Ku-Borden: I actually don't know how people would describe me. I think I lean more toward, they would probably say that I'm an extrovert, and I agree. I lean more extroverted. I like to process things with people. I like to process things out loud, but I also really appreciate time to myself. I've gotten to the point in my life where I know there are certain things that I need to process on my own first before processing it out loud.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Hey, that's good. That's good. Now before I ask you the final question in this block, a leadership question, I've got to ask, I mean, how did you end up in family medicine? What drew you to family medicine? Because there's so many specialties and it takes a particular person who chooses family medicine.

Teresa Ku-Borden: You are right. Family medicine is a very unique specialty. I was drawn to family medicine after my first year of medical school. I really didn't have a direction. I didn't come into medical school knowing I wanted to be this type of doctor. What I was coming in with was I knew I wanted to be in LA and I knew I wanted to be in an underserved community. I actually considered after college, I was pre-med in college, but I didn't know, I actually had some second guesses in college where I was like, "I don't know if I'd want to do this." But I knew I wanted to be in LA. I wanted to be in a community around where I went to college, I went to USC. And so in south LA, that area of South LA back when I went to college was very different.

But I was able to kind of experience the community around it, and I just really treasured my relationships with the folks that were in the neighborhood. And it was just that I realized I fell in love with the LA area and I wanted to kind of be a part of it in my future career, but I didn't know what, so I looked into education, I looked into social work and then in medicine.

And so when I came into medical school, I all I knew as I wanted to be in either East LA or South LA. And I actually ended up after medical school doing a preceptorship or a shadowing opportunity in Montebello with Dr. Jorge Martinez, which is kind of a full circle story because he is one of the faculty of the residency program that I [inaudible 00:13:49] . Dr. Martinez was one of my first mentors in family medicine.

Japhet De Oliveira: What a privilege to put it all together.

Teresa Ku-Borden: It was great. It was lovely. That summer I spent helping him see his patients or seeing his patients along with him. I was able to improve on my Spanish with his patients. He's fluent in Spanish. I also got to see how he practiced and how he cared for the patients and their families and how much trust they had with him. And he also had a specific interest in pediatrics. And so getting to see how he incorporated pediatrics into his practice was really inspiring to me. And so that was my first taste of what it was like to be a family doctor.

And so that kind of was a little appetizer for me. And then when I got to the clinical rotations in third and fourth year, you have to do certain required rotations. You have to do surgery, you have to do internal medicine, OB-GYN, pediatrics. And I realized that I really loved every rotation that I was in. I even loved surgery. I really loved the operating room. And in family medicine you do get some surgery training, you get to work with a surgeon and you get to be in the operating room with them to assist them. So I realized after my third year, I liked everything. I couldn't choose and I wanted to, and I saw family doctors being really effective in their communities, touching patients' lives and making a difference.

I think that they were really their greatest patient advocates and helping patients really navigate through the healthcare system and the training that they had. Because you have OB-GYN training and you have pediatric training, you have lots of training with taking care of elderly patients. You really do see everybody through their life stage. And that relationship that you develop with them is what I was really connected to. That long term relationship that you have with them, I realized was what I wanted to do.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I love that. Is that something now the desire to serve the underserved, that's something that came from something in your life or you saw it somewhere else?

Teresa Ku-Borden: My parents are immigrants, so they came from Taiwan. My dad grew up in a really large family and lost his parents really young, and also they grew up very poor. And I think that my dad's story and resilience of getting a better education or working through the educational system in Taiwan and then coming to live in a different country, not knowing the language, not knowing anybody. That really kind of inspired me. So I consider that kind of like my roots.

My parents were able to, they both had jobs, they both graduated from college. So I grew up kind of a little bit in a bubble sheltered in the suburbs. And then when I came down to LA, that bubble was kind of burst and I just kind of gave myself to different community experiences. I think college is a time where just you're exploring yourself and what kind of gives you meaning and what drives you, what motivates you. And I think I was just really blessed to have friends who were really socially committed, aware of, that's where I learned about systems of injustice, systemic racism, why communities are the way they are.

And I think that through different experiences, like I said, interactions with folks in the neighborhood, different community projects, I decided that was something that I wanted to be a part of. Working with underserved communities, learning from them, learning from the families, because I realized that now even as a family physician, I have knowledge. I have knowledge about medicines, I have knowledge about therapies. But again, my knowledge sometimes can't help somebody. I have to explore with them what's going on and maybe there's reasons why they can't come to their appointments or why they can't afford a medication because they have to pay the rent, or why they can't bring their kids in.

So I think that for me, really understanding the community that I work in, live in, that kind of thing. I lived actually really close to the hospital. And I think for me, that integrated experience was really just really important to me. And I think drives me, because if I'm a part of a community, if I actually live in a community that I practice in, I experience very similar things that my patients go through. And for me that was what was important to sustain working where I work and knowing what my patients go through.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Hey, that's brilliant. I love that, Teresa, thank you so much for sharing and, that's a really good story. Tell me last question here in this section, a leadership question. Are you a backseat driver?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Am I a backseat driver?

Japhet De Oliveira: I like the smile you have.

Teresa Ku-Borden: I have learned not to be. Backseat drivers are kind of annoying. I'm not sure exactly what a backseat driver leader looks like, but I'm guessing that, I do appreciate behind the scenes work, I think that you don't always have to be in the spotlight to lead and influence. So I do value that, but I think through my leadership development through the years and also even in my patient care, I've learned about my voice and I know when to take the driver's seat and when to step back. Is that what you mean? I don't know.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's good. That's really good. I like it. I like it. It is open to your interpretation. I think you did an exceptional job, so thank you. All right, Dr. Ku-Borden, where do you want to go first? Between 11 and 100.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Oh, right.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh yeah. You pick a number.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Let's go with prime number 23.

Japhet De Oliveira: 23. Prime number. I love that. All right, tell us about the most outdated piece of technology that you still use on a regular basis.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Oh, that's a great question. I am all about paper planners. I don't even have a planner actually. I basically write on... I have a little notebook that I really love and every week I write out my schedule. So I do have my Outlook calendars. I really love those. They're like the alerts. They're really helpful for me. One routine that I have every week because my job is so busy and I have multiple calendars that don't sync, one routine on Monday morning or Monday afternoon, because I have to see patients Monday morning, I look at all my calendars and I write down my-

Japhet De Oliveira: Your real calendar.

Teresa Ku-Borden: My different meetings or whatever I have, my schedule that week. For me, writing it down is really helpful for me to process.

Japhet De Oliveira: Memorization, the whole lot.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Yeah, that process of not just seeing it on a screen, but I have to take the time to look at it, write it down, make it look nice, refer back to it. I think that that actually is really helpful for me to remember what I need to do for the week.

Japhet De Oliveira: Hey, I love that. Good. All right, that was 23. So where next?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Do I have to go up or can I go down?

Japhet De Oliveira: You can go up or down. It's up to you or down. The journey's yours. It's your story and experiences.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Okay. Let's do 67.

Japhet De Oliveira: 67. All right. What's the best, oh, I don't know how you pick this. What's the best picture you've ever taken and why?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Wow. I love that. That I've taken or that I've been in.

Japhet De Oliveira: Well, I actually you've taken, but then I need to know the one you've been in as well.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Okay. All right. That is a really great question. Now with iPhones, you could just take so many pictures every day. I'll share a picture that is really kind of dear to my heart. And this is when it is the days of disposable cameras or film cameras. But I remember in my, I think it was in my early twenties, I think it was the summer after I finished my freshman year of college or sophomore year of college, I came back home to the Bay Area and I worked on a... Really actually through my teen years. When I started working my sophomore junior, I would just work at day camps. I loved working with kids and it was a way to make money over the summer.

So I signed up to work for this camp for kids and adults with disabilities in the mountains near where I lived. And it was a sleepaway camp. I had never really worked with anybody with a disability before. But it was a new thing that I wanted to try and I was paid. I would experience a different place, kind of a different area of where I lived. So I think it was for a couple months, but we did have, I don't remember if it was another counselor's disposable camera or my own, I think it might've been my own.

I was walking with a little girl who was born with a little bit of a limp and she probably had a chromosomal abnormality or it was cerebral palsy, but I remember holding her hand, walking to the pool or something like that. And the photo, I think when the counselors grabbed my camera and just took a photo of our backs, and the sun was setting, it was like a really beautiful, I don't know, getting emotional. It was really beautiful. I still look at it sometimes because it kind of reminds me of that summer. It reminds me of the beauty of the outdoors and it's kind of a picture of I think what I do now.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh, that is beautiful. You are walking side by side with your patients and your community. You live with them. I mean, yeah, I see it. Hey, that's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. That was really fitting. All right, let's go. Where'd you want to go after 67?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Oh Yeah. Okay.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, sorry.

Teresa Ku-Borden: No, that's fine. Let's go with 48.

Japhet De Oliveira: 48. All right, here we go. Tell us about your best personality trait.

Teresa Ku-Borden: My best personality trait. I would say, I think that my best personality trait is I'm pretty adaptable. I don't know if you're familiar with the Enneagram personality. I mean more than personality. I'm not an expert, but I think that I'm an Enneagram nine and that's kind of the harmony, the one that kind of values harmony. I think that I am adaptable and I really like working with different kinds of people. I've always been told, "Hey, you get along with a lot of different types of people, how do you do that?" And I think it's part of my personality also what I've learned through the years to just work with people and collaborate to get things done.

But I think that my adaptability has really helped me in my own leadership, in the way my leadership style, being collaborative and listening to other folks, people's perspective, being willing to change my course. I think sometimes to a fault. I don't think that I'm right. I trust other people's judgments over mine and I really had to learn through the years to trust myself and trust my own judgment. But I think because I spent a lot of years listening to other people and maybe trusting them too much, I have just learned to really hold a lot of people's perspectives and to move things forward.

Japhet De Oliveira: Good. You create collaborative spaces, it's great. Yeah. Super. All right, we are down to the final two numbers. So where do you want to go for the final two numbers?

Teresa Ku-Borden: 71.

Japhet De Oliveira: Okay. 71 it is. Describe a time in your life that took an unpredictable turn.

Teresa Ku-Borden: That's a great question. We're interviewing residency applicants right now.

Japhet De Oliveira: Right. Okay.

Teresa Ku-Borden: That's a question that I added this year.

Japhet De Oliveira: Oh really, oh, hey, that's great. That's great. Yeah.

Teresa Ku-Borden: So I have to think about it, but I think I love that question. I have a lot of unpredictable turns in my life. I'm trying to think of one in particular to highlight. So I did residency... So I'll tell you a little bit about my life story. So went to medical school, got married my fourth year of medical school, and then my husband and I moved to Ventura County. I did my residency at Ventura County Medical Center. And went through my three years of family medicine residency. I did an extra year in obstetrics, so I delivered babies for a year.

And then towards the end of my fellowship we were planning to have a family. So I found out I was pregnant. And so went through the pregnancy. I was able to have the baby in Ventura with my residency family. And residency, was a really great experience for me. And so I wanted to have my first child there. And so however, when he was born, he had some complications. The birth was fine, it was just afterwards. He was jaundiced, and jaundice is very common in newborns. I've taken care of many babies with jaundice. But he had this really rare form of jaundice.

It was just one of those things where just sometimes there's this saying among doctors sometimes, doctors sometimes experience the rarest complications or issues. I definitely have friends who are physicians who either had really high-risk pregnancies. It is really interesting. I don't know if it's a phenomenon. But anyways, basically my baby was born with a liver condition that probably happens one in 12 to 15,000 babies. So it's not uncommon. But I didn't know anybody who had a kid who had this condition. I maybe took care of one baby with this condition in medical school. And all I knew, it's one of those things where when you're a doctor, your mind goes to the worst case scenario right away. You have some knowledge, but you don't have-

Japhet De Oliveira: All the knowledge.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Everything. If it's not your specialty, you don't really know that much about it. So on his second or third day of life, my mind was just going to the worst places. And I was like, "He's going to have biliary atresia." Biliary atresia is that this condition where you're born with bile ducts in your liver that don't drain bilirubin. And so it gets stuck in there. And so it causes chronic liver disease. And so what you learn in medical school is that there's a surgery that, it's kind of like a wild surgery where you cut the intestine and you hook it up to the liver to the drain the bile. It's called the Kasai procedure.

And I remember learning about that in medical school. I'm like, my kid is going to have it. And everyone around was like, "No, no, no. It's so rare, don't worry about it." He ended up having it and he needed that surgery when he was... You want to get it, you want to get that surgery done within a window like four to eight weeks of life. So we were able to identify early, which was great. And then he got the surgery when he was five weeks old and definitely an unexpected turn. When you're pregnant, everyone just thinks you're going to have a healthy baby.

And there were no really signs during pregnancy that this would happen. It's very rare. The cause is unknown. But definitely he still struggles with this liver condition. So it's great that the procedure worked because a lot of babies, if they miss that window, because jaundice is so common that doctors don't recognize it, you miss the window for that surgery and they end up needing a transplant. So my son is still struggling with chronic liver disease. We're grateful that the surgery worked. He may still need a transplant in the future, but it was definitely unexpected. But I think that it made me a better doctor, to be honest.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's amazing.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Because you realize that everybody goes through unexpected things.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, they do. That's true.

Teresa Ku-Borden: For me to have gone through that, it was really hard. I worked through a lot of pain. And a lot of people, a lot of isolation. But I had a really good support system and grateful for the medical care that he got and ways that I'm a doctor so I know what to do to advocate for him. But I had to go through the healthcare system myself. I still have to advocate for him. I still go through the uncertainty of his conditions. So in a way, it connects me with my patients.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Hey Teresa, thank you for taking something that's very difficult and making something beautiful out of it. And it's pretty powerful. That's pretty powerful. That's good. That's good. Thank you. All right, my friend, we are on your final number. So where would you like to go for your final number? Yeah, I know, I know. It's okay. I have a box of tissues here, but I don't have one there with you because we're remote,

Teresa Ku-Borden: A fun one. I don't know. I think I'll go with, let's go with 83.

Japhet De Oliveira: 83. Okay. Here we go.

Teresa Ku-Borden: A fun one.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah. Oh, actually it's perfect. Think about your favorite childhood memory. What was it?

Teresa Ku-Borden: Oh, my favorite childhood memory.

Japhet De Oliveira: Yeah, look at that. Family doctor. Family doctor.

Teresa Ku-Borden:  Yes. Okay. So one of my favorite childhood memories is biking with my dad. So my dad is electrical engineer and he worked full-time job, but he would make it a point to spend time with us on the weekends. And so almost every weekend for a period in my life. Maybe middle school through early high school, we would bike to different places.

Japhet De Oliveira: Wow, nice.

Teresa Ku-Borden: And I think my favorite places were, so at that time we were living in Palo Alto, and so we lived maybe, I mean biking distance to downtown Palo Alto. And there was Noah's Bagels there and then a bookstore across the street and a comic bookstore. So I remember we would bike to downtown, probably like 25 to 30 minute bike ride. And then we'd park our bikes and walk our bikes and then go get some bagels. And I would go to the bookstore and my brother would go to the comic bookstore. And we just spend lazy afternoons there.

Japhet De Oliveira: That's great.

Teresa Ku-Borden: And I think now that really has helped me realize the weekends are special for my family. So we don't do a lot on the weekends. My kids are busy with sports, but we definitely have downtime on the weekends where we're just being lazy and reading or watching something together.

Japhet De Oliveira: Living life.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Or presence. I think presence is so important. Being present to them and I think that's what my dad did for us.

Japhet De Oliveira: Well I hope he gets to hear that story as well. That was really good. Good. Teresa, thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for taking the time. Really appreciate it.

Teresa Ku-Borden: No problem.

Japhet De Oliveira: It is something I encourage people to do. Sit down with a friend, ask good questions, learn about each other. We are, I really believe this, we are transformed and we are changed for it, so we're better for it. So God bless you and God bless all our listeners as well. Thank you.

Teresa Ku-Borden: Thank you.

Narrator: Thank you for joining us for the Story & Experience podcast. We invite you to read, watch, and submit your story and experience at adventisthealth.org/story. The Story & Experience podcast was brought to you by Adventist Health through the Office of Culture.