Tony Hunter
Episode 35

Narrator:

Welcome, friends, to another episode of The Story & Experience Podcast. Join your host, Japhet De Oliveira with his guest today and discover the moments that shape us, our families, and communities.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Welcome, friends, to another fantastic episode of The Story & Experience Podcast. I am very excited to be able to see who is right across me because this is actually live across from me, which is rare. Usually, I record ... You heard him already. Usually, I record and we are online, but in this case here, we're literally facing each other, physically in the same space, both vaccinated, both super safe. We should've done an extra test.

Tony Hunter:

It's beautiful.

Japhet De Oliveira:

It's beautiful. It's beautiful. So I'm very glad to have our guest today. And you heard his voice, so we should really dive into this straight away by beginning with the very first question. But for anybody who's brand new, never heard about this, this is how it works. We have 100 questions, they obviously get a little bit more complex towards the end. Question 100 is the hardest. And I'll begin with the first 10, and those are really easy. And then the guests get to choose between 11 and 100, where they're going. There's a nod of affirmation.

Tony Hunter:

Yes.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And he said yes.

Tony Hunter:

Because no one can see my nod over audio, that's great.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I know, I know. That's good. All right. So first question: What's your name? And does anybody ever kind of mess it up?

Tony Hunter:

My name is Tony. You want just first and last name? Tony Hunter.

Japhet De Oliveira:

You choose.

Tony Hunter:

Anthony Glen Hunter is on my birth certificate, so if you're looking to steal my identity, that's a good start. But I go by Tony. And does anyone mess it up? Yes, weirdly, all the time. I get called Tom almost daily.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Really?

Tony Hunter:

Yes. I don't know what it is. Some people that I work with regularly will call me Tom. Patients call me Tom.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Is there someone near you?

Tony Hunter:

There is another chaplain named Tom, but we don't work together on the same team, so I don't know why this happens. But Tom is a common one. Troy was a common one for a while. I'd get Troy a lot. The weirdest one was Roy.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Roy.

Tony Hunter:

Yes. I had a guy when I was pastoring in my first church district who for it must've been two years called me Roy. And I used to correct him weekly. For the first month or two, I'd be like, "Yeah. No, I'm Tony." And then finally, I just stopped, I was Roy. He called me Roy. And then one day, he came through and shook hands after church and he called me Roy. He walked away, stopped and came back and said, "I've been calling you Roy, but that's not your name. Is it?" And I was like, "No, my name is Tony." And he's like, "OK. I'll remember that." Sad twist, he died the next day.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Oh, no.

Tony Hunter:

No joke.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Oh, seriously? Wow.

Tony Hunter:

Seriously, seriously. There's always a part of me, especially now that I've been in hospice for a while, I was like, "Was he having this last moment of awareness?"

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, clarity.

Tony Hunter:

Like, "I need to get this right." I mean, I see that sometimes with patients. They'll have this uptick of clarity, and suddenly they will say some really cogent things, and then that's it.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I'm glad one of those was you got your name right as well.

Tony Hunter:

He finally got it right. Good for him.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Hey, that's beautiful. All right. Well, good. So you've alluded to it and said it. But what do you do for work?

Tony Hunter:

I am a hospice chaplain.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right.

Tony Hunter:

Yes.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's fantastic. And how long have you been doing that?

Tony Hunter:

I've been in hospice for about two and a half years. I was in the hospital setting for a couple years before that, so I've been in healthcare chaplaincy since 2016.

Japhet De Oliveira:

OK, all right. But you've been in pastoral care for.

Tony Hunter:

Longer.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, longer. I like that.

Tony Hunter:

I graduated seminary in '06, started in '03. And I was teaching Bible the year before that, so I guess you can decide when it actually started. But yeah, weirdly, I was teaching Bible on a graphic design degree, well, commercial art degree, so I don't know if that counts or not. What qualifies you? Nothing, nothing.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Oh, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. All right. So here's just practical things. In the morning when you get up, are you a cup of tea, coffee, liquid green smoothie, water? What's your first drink of the day?

Tony Hunter:

Water.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Water?

Tony Hunter:

Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

OK. All right. From the tap or one of those ...

Tony Hunter:

Well, sort of tap ish. We have water that comes out of the front of the fridge. It kind of goes through a filter. But I always, and this is a weird quirk, I don't even know when I started doing this, but I will bring a glass of water up with me when I go to bed, not because I'm drinking it, but I want it there in the morning, so I have a glass first thing in the morning. I get up and I down a glass of water, and that's how I start my day. I don't even remember why I do that. I just do it now.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good. That's great. Well done. Tony, where were you born?

Tony Hunter:

I was born in Joliet, Illinois.

Japhet De Oliveira:

OK. And you've been back there?

Tony Hunter:

Yes. My brother still lives not in Joliet anymore, but he lives close to the area. We never actually lived in Joliet. We lived in Channahon, Illinois. But the hospital that was closest was in Joliet, so that's where we went. But yeah, I was there until I graduated high school. I went to Broadview Academy, so my family was still in the area. And then after that, I went away to college and kind of never went back.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I know that you're a super creative, so this is going to be kind of fun. When you were a kid and you were thinking about, in Illinois, you're going to grow up, what did you imagine you were going to be?

Tony Hunter:

Yeah, that's a fascinating journey. For the longest time, up until I was just getting into high school, I was convinced that I was going to either work with cars or I was going to be an engineer of some sort because my entire childhood was based around old cars and muscle cars and anything like that. And then at some point, the movie Regarding Henry came out, and then half the planet decided they wanted to be a physical therapist, and I was one of them. And so it shifted, and all my plans after that were like, I've got to go to premed and I've got to get all that going on. And then somehow wound up with an art degree, so I don't know. But it was engineering or something like that was going to be the case. I drew all the time. I loved it, but I couldn't imagine how anyone could make money doing art. Turns out, they're right, which is why I'm a chaplain with an art degree.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Well, there's still [inaudible 00:07:10] side. I like it, I like it.

Tony Hunter:

It's possible I'm not good at it. I don't know.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Hey, it's good. Personality wise, would people describe you, Tony, as an introvert, an extrovert? And would you agree?

Tony Hunter:

So most people who have known me for shorter periods of time are convinced I'm an extrovert. I'm actually extremely introverted. Extroversion was something I had to learn how to do. I had to learn how to be social and outgoing, and I didn't figure it out probably until I was finishing up college.

Japhet De Oliveira:

This is interesting because I've had a guest who's been listening to quite a few episodes, and there's quite a few people who said a similar answer to you. And he's an extrovert, and he was like ... You could tell that he did not like that answer from the guest. And so I'm with you, I'm with you. I understand. It's good. All right. Habits. Early morning riser, late night owl.

Tony Hunter:

Intrinsically, it's easier for me to stay up late and sleep late. If I have to do lots of early mornings, I just don't, I don't do it well. I mean, I can do it, but I don't like it. I'm naturally trending towards stay up late, sleep late. Although, now as we get older, it's go to bed early and then still try to sleep late if possible.

Japhet De Oliveira:

No, I hear you. I hear you. We try. We try.

Tony Hunter:

We try.

Japhet De Oliveira:

We try, indeed. First thing this morning, what's the first thought that went through your mind this morning?

Tony Hunter:

First thought that went through my mind this morning.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah.

Tony Hunter:

Oh, that's hard. I'm trying to even remember what this morning was like. When's the first memory I have this morning? I think the first thought I had this morning was, oh, yeah, the first thought I had this morning was I need to hurry up and get up because I still haven't charted my IDT notes for the meeting that I have in an hour and a half.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Fair enough, fair enough. And were you able to get them all in time?

Tony Hunter:

Oh, yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, yeah, easy. Good. All right, good. Well done for that. OK. Here's a leadership question for you. Are you and do you consider yourself to be a backseat driver?

Tony Hunter:

I don't think that I am. You'd probably have to ask somebody else for sure. But I try not to be. I don't think I've intrinsically been a backseat driver. Although, I can't prove that, so you may need to ask somebody else, but I don't think that I am. I sure hope that I'm not. I don't want to be, so let's say it like that.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good, good. I like that. Good self awareness. All right, so we have done, see how easy that was, now-

Tony Hunter:

That was easy.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Oh, yeah. Now it's going to go to the beautiful part, 11 to 100. Where would you like to begin?

Tony Hunter:

11 to 100. OK. 23.

Japhet De Oliveira:

23 it is. All right, tell us about the most outdated piece of technology you still use on a regular basis and you just can't let go of it.

Tony Hunter:

The most outdated piece of technology. Define outdated for me.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Anything pre circa four BC.

Tony Hunter:

The only reason I say that is because I do have some tools in my garage that I mean, they really haven't changed much in the last 150 years, but I mean, I've got a hammer. I mean, hammers haven't changed a lot. But if we're talking modern technology like electronics and things like that-

Japhet De Oliveira:

It was outdated within a month.

Tony Hunter:

It was outdated within a month. Right now I think the oldest piece of technology that we have is a MacBook from 2012 that we still use. We have a can opener, an electric can opener that we've had since probably year five or so of our marriage.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Hey, that's great. Electric.

Tony Hunter:

Electric.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And it works.

Tony Hunter:

And it works.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's impressive.

Tony Hunter:

And the toaster's actually older than that. Actually, the toaster that we have is from when we got married, so maybe that's the oldest piece of technology that we have.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And it toasts.

Tony Hunter:

It still toasts. It's the only reason we haven't gotten rid of it. It still works.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's great. All right. After 23, where next?

Tony Hunter:

37.

Japhet De Oliveira:

37. It's hard to find a good toaster. All right, 37. Who do you like most ... Sorry. What do you like most about your family? That's a better question.

Tony Hunter:

Who do I like most?

Japhet De Oliveira:

Who do you like most? What do you like most about your family?

Tony Hunter:

What do I like most about my family? I have a family, and if we're referring to my side of the family versus my wife's side of the family, so I'll do it like that. My side of the family, the thing that I like most is probably also the thing that I like least. It's the same thing. The comforting thing is every time we get together, it's largely predictable. I know what to expect. I know who they are. We can kind of fall back into a rhythm, good or bad. But it's a known quantity. I know what to expect. I know what's happening. I know who they are and I know how to largely interact with them.

Tony Hunter:

I would say the flip side of that is it's not always a good thing. But I do appreciate that it's not an unknown every time we get together. I guess that's probably the thing I like best. We get along as well as we can superficially, as sometimes families do. I have great nieces I don't get to see very often, and they're growing up. So actually, they're probably the most unknown quantity. So maybe yeah, I'd have to think about that some more, but my off the cuff answer is the fact that it's a known quantity and I don't have to strain my brain too much to know what's going to happen once we all get together.

Japhet De Oliveira:

There is a level of comfort with that, right?

Tony Hunter:

There is.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, yeah.

Tony Hunter:

There is. And it's not always a healthy thing, and sometimes the things you're comfortable with aren't good.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah, sure.

Tony Hunter:

But there is something positive about knowing how to handle that.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good. Good. All right. Where would you like to go next?

Tony Hunter:

OK. How about ... You know what, I'm going to jump straight to 100 because I don't know how long that's going to take, and I'm really curious. We can backtrack. I'll come back down and hit some other ones.

Japhet De Oliveira:

You can, you can. All right. All right.

Tony Hunter:

I want to know what 100 is. I am super curious.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right. I did have one guest who did actually ask for the question 100 as their opening question.

Tony Hunter:

Makes sense.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I'm with you, I understand. But it was only one guest.

Tony Hunter:

And this guest regretted it is what I'm guessing.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And you're guest number two. All right. So here's question 100. Tell us about, Tony, one question that you just don't want to answer.

Tony Hunter:

One question that I don't want to answer. Like just any question ever that I don't want to answer?

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah.

Tony Hunter:

Well, this is a hard question because I'm not sure what that is.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah.

Tony Hunter:

I was expecting it to be scary. It's not scary. It's just I've never even considered that. What's a question I don't want to answer? While I'm thinking on one half of my gears, the reason why this is hard is ... And you've been around enough chaplains to know this, is part of the training that we go through is basically programming all of our filters out of us.

Japhet De Oliveira:

I know.

Tony Hunter:

So it's literally our job to be ready to talk about anything at any given time without hesitation, as long as it's appropriate for the context. Right?

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yep.

Tony Hunter:

So I don't know. I honestly don't know. I don't have a good answer for this. I can't come up with something that if somebody asks me, and I felt it was appropriate to discuss it, that I wouldn't answer the question because I've answered some really awkward questions before. All right, here we go. The question that I would not answer, and I would not answer it out of respect for my wife, and that is if somebody wanted details of our sex life. I think that's the question that I can think of right now that I wouldn't answer, not because I would have a problem talking about it, but because she might not want people in that area of our business. So that would be the one that I'd probably hesitate and push back on strongly, and probably not do so unless I'd previously had her permission to do so.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And you'd probably be along with 99.9% of other people as well who would agree with you with that question as well. That's fair enough. All right. So there you-

Tony Hunter:

That wasn't scary.

Japhet De Oliveira:

No, it's not supposed to be scary. So maybe the podcast, it's not supposed to be scary, it's about the journey towards it, so hey, there you go.

Tony Hunter:

That's fair.

Japhet De Oliveira:

But then you are a chaplain who you're prepared for.

Tony Hunter:

Yeah. Well, I mean-

Japhet De Oliveira:

All areas, right?

Tony Hunter:

It's a process getting there.

Japhet De Oliveira:

It is, a long process. All right. Where would you like to go after 100 then, sir?

Tony Hunter:

99. Let's just start working backwards, 99, let's go with 99.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right. Well, then 99. What's the most difficult truth that you've ever told?

Tony Hunter:

See, to me this is harder than 100.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Because this one's directed.

Tony Hunter:

The most difficult truth that I've ever told, wow. I would say the most difficult truth I've ever told was ... All right. How do I say it? I think the most difficult truth I ever told was the acknowledgement of the reality that ... Is this how people normally answer this with lots of stops and starts and hesitation?

Japhet De Oliveira:

It's OK. It's OK. Yeah.

Tony Hunter:

So there's a few people who know the intimate details of this. You happen to be one of them. As you know, in 2015, when we were working together, I had an acute mental health crisis that functionally was one of 1000 details that led to the ending of my church pastor career. And I think the most difficult truth I've ever told was the acknowledgement of not being able to handle my life the way it was at the time. The acceptance of that and then speaking it aloud, that I can't do this anymore, which was profoundly difficult for me because I'd always seen myself as someone who was always strong enough to do what needed to be done. I could push through. I could do the thing. I've had again, as you know, I've had cancer. I've been through things like that. And those were hard days, those were hard conversations. Those were hard acknowledgements of: How do I view life and death and mortality and all of that kind of stuff?

Tony Hunter:

And I think there was very hard times in that, but I think the hardest thing I ever had to admit was that moment, that breakdown, excuse me, that breakdown of my ability to push through, to cope, to hold back and quite frankly, avoid all of the problems that I'd been avoiding. And yeah, I mean, there's other hard things that I've had to say, but I think that's the one that comes to the top of my mind right now. Ask me tomorrow, I might tell you something different. But right now, that's the one that I think comes up. Yeah.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Well, and to your credit, Tony, and to those that are listening, it's not easy for anyone to ever get to the place where we naturally want to go, especially for people who are in leadership roles, with lots of responsibility, who've done this for many, many years, to actually then and in a public setting, public figure, to have to admit that they actually need help, which actually, truth is, everyone needs help. Right? The problem is that we don't live in a world where it's actually great or good to kind of admit that you need help. Right?

Tony Hunter:

Right. No, it's true.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All of us, myself included, all of us, we all need help. And if we don't get to that space, if we don't allow ourselves that space, it really does implode on us.

Tony Hunter:

It does. I mean, when you really look at the things that we deal with day to day in our lives and our culture and our society, the issues that go around, and all the arguments about different things that take place, whether it's mass shootings, whether it's pick whatever horrific crisis that takes place, and we look at: How do we solve all these problems? And everybody's looking at solving problems from the outside in. And I understand that, people want to see results. People want to see that something happened. And I always think back to Columbine, not because we're in Colorado, it's just the one that, the first one in my adult life that I remember us having to wrestle with, and everyone wanting to see solutions that none of which actually dealt with the problem.

Tony Hunter:

And it wasn't because of whether or not the discussion of guns versus no guns is important because it is. It just wasn't the core issue. And the core issue for so many of these things is mental health. And because we have such a poor methodology ... I can't say the word now.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Methodology.

Tony Hunter:

That's the one, methodology. I forgot how language worked for a second.

Japhet De Oliveira:

No, but yeah.

Tony Hunter:

I think I had a stroke. No, but because of that, we don't have a good way to deal with that and we don't acknowledge it. And it's been such a taboo thing in our society for so long, generations and generations raised thinking that's not even a real thing. You just have to buck up and be strong. So we don't deal with it, people don't talk about that. We don't take care of it. And so then suddenly, somebody has a crisis and does something terrible. Right? And we want to solve it by more legislation, and maybe there's things that need to change there, but that doesn't solve the problem. It puts a Band-Aid on it. We had the shooting here in Boulder. What was it? Was it earlier this year or last year?

Japhet De Oliveira:

It was this year.

Tony Hunter:

It was this year at the beginning of this year. And the thing that was fascinating to me beyond just the tragedy of it was when they started interviewing the gunman's family. And the first things they said was, "He used to talk about people who weren't there, and he was always afraid that someone was watching him. And he would claim that people were in the driveway watching him, and there was never anyone there." They knew there was a problem, and it never occurred to anyone that maybe something should be done about it.

Tony Hunter:

And so I wonder how many people are like that. Right? How many people in our society are struggling that way and no one thinks twice about it because we haven't been taught and trained to even acknowledge that it's a problem, it's an issue? So to your point, I think there's a lot of work to be done there that I think we're still afraid to do.

Japhet De Oliveira:

So if I were to ask a 99A, there are a lot of leaders listening to this. Right? A lot of people who maybe are feeling a lot of pressure, just like you and I have both experienced. And you and I both wept together, processed all sorts of things, and seen this in our friends, in our lives, and in our own lives as well together. And I thank you for your honesty about this as well. But what would you give as advice, Tony, having gone through it yourself? What advice would you give to a leader that's feeling like the pressure of being this, but they need help as well?

Tony Hunter:

I would say one of the cliché things that we say all the time in chaplaincy when we're dealing with families as caregivers and stuff, is that you can't care for someone else if you don't care for yourself. We say it so much, it seems cliché. It just happens to be true. Sometimes they are. And so the idea of self-care is important. But I think beyond that is the acceptance that there is many ways to serve. There are many ways to serve, if I want to be grammatically correct. And to walk away from one area of service to do another doesn't mean that you failed, and it doesn't mean that you're walking away from a calling or a leading. And I've always tried to differentiate the difference between being led to do something and called to do something.

Tony Hunter:

Sometimes we confuse those, and I think some people are led to do different things at different times. But maybe the calling is something else, maybe the calling is something deeper. And so if somebody is in ministry, or if they're in chaplaincy type ministry, or church ministry, or whatever leadership role that they're in, it's not weakness to walk away from that. I would argue it's strength to be able to walk away from that because being able to make the choice to do what is best for your health and for the people around you, you do no one any good if you can't be who you need to be in a healthy manner. And sometimes it's better to walk away and find a way to do something else, or to get the help that you need. And there's no shame in that.

Tony Hunter:

I really have always appreciated Brene Brown's comments on the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is the idea that we made a mistake. But shame is the idea that I am a mistake. And I believe that for a lot of people, especially leaders, especially the mentality that goes behind someone who's driven to lead, there is this need to be seen as infallible, as we don't make mistakes. I can't be wrong. I have to get it right every time. And that's just not reality. And I think for a leader to be a good leader, they have to be able to acknowledge freely and openly that I didn't get it right, and that's OK to say that, and that maybe I shouldn't be the one doing this. Or maybe I shouldn't do it now. Maybe I need to step away from this. And that's OK, and it sets an example for everyone who works under them, everyone that they lead. Yeah, I think I would tell them that it's OK to say no and to walk away, and do what you need to do, and to not have to hide it.

Tony Hunter:

And if there are those who can't handle that, that's their problem, not the person who's suffering. Weakness isn't acknowledging that there's an issue. Weakness is trying to hide that there's an issue. Strength is being able to say, "I'm struggling," and being unafraid to say that in front of people.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Confront it.

Tony Hunter:

Yeah. And not worrying about who knows.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yes.

Tony Hunter:

That's where the strength is, saying that I've got a problem, and it doesn't matter to me that you know about it, because it needs to be dealt with. That's where the strength is.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Yeah.

Tony Hunter:

I think I'd go in that direction.

Japhet De Oliveira:

What's fascinating for me as well about, and I'll say this just for our listeners as well, is that what you and I went through at that period of time, a lot of people who were watching it from the outside didn't know anything was going on, and didn't see anything that was going on. And in fact, thought, "My goodness, this guy, Tony, he's just an [inaudible 00:28:08] star, brilliant pastor," because you were delivering a brilliant pastor doing the stuff that you did. And what was interesting is that I knew, because I knew the Tony before, and I know the Tony today, and I know the Tony before and the Tony today is exactly this brilliance, and that even what you were presenting then wasn't exactly who you were. And I think that is just beautiful to see who you are today because who you are today is even stronger and phenomenal compared to who you were then.

Japhet De Oliveira:

But you actually have, you've impressed me, you've inspired me. And you've inspired, I'm sure you have inspired our listeners as well to have the courage to actually be strong by being able to share and being able to take care of themselves because by doing so, they will either return to who they were before, and by returning, they will actually be stronger, so thank you.

Tony Hunter:

That's kind and gracious. I appreciate that.

Japhet De Oliveira:

That's good, Tony. I really appreciate it. We have, my friend, time for two more. Do you want to continue on this path? Where would you like to go?

Tony Hunter:

You know what, let's continue this path. I'm enjoying these 90s questions. I think these are the good meat. They're not as funny as some of the others, but I think they're important. So let's do 98, let's do it.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right. What is one thing that you are capable ... What is one great thing that you are capable of achieving?

Tony Hunter:

One great thing that I'm capable of achieving.

Japhet De Oliveira:

One great thing.

Tony Hunter:

One great thing. This is going to sound like a cop out answer, but I think one great thing I'm capable of achieving is anything. I would like to say that to anyone. I think anyone can achieve anything if-

Japhet De Oliveira:

I like that.

Tony Hunter:

If they're willing to do that. It doesn't mean that I will. It doesn't mean that I'll decide that's what I need to do, or that I have the focus for that, or that I've figured it out. But I think anyone's capable of achieving anything under the right circumstances with the right support, at the right mindset. I don't think there's anything off limits there. So in lieu of something super specific, I'll have to say anything. I think it's a good baseline to start with. How about that?

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right. And for our final one, do you want to go 97?

Tony Hunter:

Yeah, go 97.

Japhet De Oliveira:

All right. Tell us about a time when you did the right thing.

Tony Hunter:

The right thing, oh man. Have I ever done the right thing? That doesn't sound like me. A time that I did the right thing, when you said that, the first thing that popped into my head is what I'll go with. And there was a kid when I was youth pastoring, not in Colorado, and I'll leave it a little vague like that, whose family I had to turn in for child abuse. And it was the right thing to do, it was complicated and messy. And I had, weirdly, had people pushing back on me on whether or not that I should do that, even though it was abundantly clear that it should happen. And it was a fascinating experience.

Tony Hunter:

This student, youth that I had, had been talking to some of the other youth, who had contacted me about things that he had said, was wanting to run away, was wondering if he should just not be alive anymore, and was telling them the things that his father was doing. And so they contacted me and I immediately got in touch with the boy. And he was 14 ish. And we set up a time at the school there, and I sat and chatted with him for a while, and he just told me all these things. And so I checked to see what he was really thinking about, what he wanted to do, and where he wanted to go. And it wasn't so much he was contemplating suicide, he just wanted to be out of the situation.

Tony Hunter:

I talked to my senior pastor at the time, who was a little uncertain about how he felt he wanted to go. It was going to cause lots of problems. I'd already talked to the conference saying, "I'm going to do this, but I want to make sure that somebody's going to have my back if I do that." They immediately put me in touch with the conference attorney, who said, "No, you have no choice. You have to do this." And I said, "Well, that's what I thought, but I've gotten some pushback." So I did it, and for a long time, the family did not know that I was the one who turned them in. And it was an interesting phenomenon because the kid and myself had a pretty good relationship. He helped out quite a bit, and the family was always so excited. I mean, up until the day they found out that I had turned them in, they would talk to me after youth programs going, "We're so grateful that you're working our kids," I mean just so supportive. And then they found out, and it just became a storm.

Tony Hunter:

A good chunk of the community there was really upset that it had happened. It was interesting. This is where culture can be such a powerful thing because this was a very multicultural church. It was a beautiful place as far as that goes. But because of that, the culture that this particular family was a part of, rallied behind the father, but in a very odd way. They rallied behind him in that they supported him, and yet privately, many of them came to me and says, "We know you did the right thing. Don't worry about it."

Japhet De Oliveira:

Wow.

Tony Hunter:

"What you did, you should've done, and we know it's a problem. But just know that because of the way our community works, we have to support each other, so don't take it personally." It was just a very fascinating and horrible experience because in the end, nothing came of it. He was investigated, and because there was no overt proof, the rest of the family knew it was happen, and even all but acknowledged it, but not to the person who was investigating. Because there was none of that, they could not do anything.

Tony Hunter:

The father actually all but admitted it to the senior pastor in a meeting. Three times, he was asked, "Are you doing this?" And all he would say is, "I love my son." He would never say no. He never said he didn't do it. And so it was really tragic. That whole relationship came apart. I was not allowed to talk with that child due to the parents, not because of the church or community. And yeah, it was just horrible. It was tragic. And honestly, I don't know what's come of that to this day. But in the end, I feel like it was the right thing to do.

Tony Hunter:

I did get a text message from the kid probably a year and a half, two years after, telling me that he was grateful and he wasn't upset about doing that. Even though it was hard and it messed up a lot of things for him, he was glad he was able to say what he needed to say and get that out. And so I take comfort in knowing that he believes that he did the right thing by making sure it came out, but it has never sat good with me. I really don't feel good about the fact that happened. And he wasn't the only one in the family being abused, and nothing changed really.

Japhet De Oliveira:

Those are always very, very hard. Well, courage that you took for stepping in, and doing the right thing, it is very difficult, Tony. Tony, thank you, brother, thank you so much for absolutely for honesty, as always, for the courage to share, courage to share of your own experiences. For anybody who is listening, and if you are in a situation, especially the situation that Tony just spoke about right now, you're not alone. Please reach out for help. Reach out to your local community. Go to your local hospital. Go to your local church. Find somebody to help you. Do not stay by yourself.

Tony Hunter:

Absolutely.

Japhet De Oliveira:

No matter what situation you're in, nobody should be alone in those situations, so know that.

Tony Hunter:

Definitely.

Japhet De Oliveira:

And it is really important, so I want to encourage all of our listeners as well, just to continue sharing your stories and experiences with each other, listening to them, because by doing so, you shape not only your own life, but you shape the others as well, and that's actually what we're called to do. We're called to shape each other's lives, to help to raise more hope, and to be an incredible force for good in each other's lives. God bless. Look after yourselves. And Tony, again, thanks so much for your time.

Tony Hunter:

Absolutely. Enjoyed it.

Narrator:

Thank you for joining us for The Story & Experience Podcast. We invite you to read, watch, and submit your story and experience at AdventistHealth.org/Story. The Story & Experience Podcast was brought to you by Adventist Health through the Office of Culture.